Mastering the Art of Influence: How to Lead without Authority with Orvel Ray Wilson

Welcome to the Courage of a Leader Podcast. Today you will have the pleasure of hearing from Orvel Ray Wilson, someone who has a vast amount of experience in marketing and leadership. And today, you'll hear us as we translate his lessons learned from leading a volunteer orchestra into valuable guidance for leaders who are working to influence across their organizations without direct authority. Get ready to want to immediately apply what Orvel Ray has to share.

Welcome to the Courage of a Leader podcast. This is where you hear real life stories of top leaders achieving extraordinary results. And you'll get practical advice and techniques, you can immediately apply for your own success. This is where you will get inspired and take bold, courageous action. I'm so glad you can join us. I'm your host, Amy Riley. Now, are you ready to step into the full power of your leadership and achieve the results you care about most? Let's ignite the courage of a leader.

Orvel Ray, thank you for being here today. You mentor experts and authors and leaders in a variety of ways to achieve a variety of outcomes. And today, we decided we were going to talk about you the experience that you've had in leading a group of volunteers. The folks that are in the big band called The Flatirons jazz orchestra. And we wanted to talk about that because we thought listeners could glean some important lessons learned some techniques of how we influence without authority. Because here you're influencing you're leading a group of volunteers. So first of all, tell us about the Flatirons Jazz Orchestra.

you told me about that accent? I didn't know you were told you'd never be able to hold a drumstick again. Yeah,

Yeah, I definitely wanted to get into when you when you're bringing new members on board, when you grew that from the original three founders, to the 18 members that you now have? How did you invite folks, how did you explain the opportunity also asked for the commitment?

next night, not us. Okay. I love this. Orvel Ray. And I know we wanted to be translated in your experience of leading this orchestra to leaders, even individual contributors inside of an organization who are trying to influence others. We're all in matrix organizations right now and they might not be a direct report of ours right yet. We're trying to influence their work in Some ways, I've heard a couple of pieces of guidance, if you will, from what you shared already. You talked about the open stage, right, like ways that you invite people in, let them know about your team or your work or this project or this initiative that's coming their way. Right? Give them a way to say that they're interested or this would be the piece that they'd be more most interested in learning more about or contributing to? I love that you were clear about who you were. You were a lot of managers,

a lot of businesses. You ask the employees, you know, what, what, what do you do? What do you sell? I don't know. I? I just, you know, working in the warehouse? I have no idea. And I'm reminded of that cliche story about the stonemason. You know, he's asking, What are you doing is I'm carrying a piece of stone, and that's another guy on the job site is what do you do? He says, Well, I'm building a wall. And he asked another age, what are you doing? He says, I'm building a cathedral. And as the fourth guy says, what do you what are you doing? He says, I'm getting closer to God, with every stroke of my hammer, the purpose. So being really adding, not just not just being clear about it, but having boundaries around it, what business are we in? What do we do? What do we always do? What do we never do? Who are we doing it for? You know, where do we find those people? And then one of the things we did is we went to a dance clubs. And we asked dancers help us make a list of songs you'd like to dance to?

Ask your ultimate customers what their

grades. Right? So we have, we had an enthusiastic audience from the beginning. So as a musician, the worst thing that you can do is show up and play to an empty room. Yeah. So a lot of what makes this organization attractive is that everyone's clear what we're up to. And they all want to be a part of that. That's great. That's great. Well, that covers Yeah, knock yourself out. But this is what here's what we do. And you're out there. You want either that's what you want, or you're in the wrong place. That's all Yeah, no, a couple grades. Jim Collins said get the right people on the bus. And then you got to tell them what kind of bus it is. We wrote a manifesto to be a one page Word document that basically spelled out you know, this is the mission. You know, these are the expectations. Some ground rules. If you show up late for a gig, you will be sent home period no questions. Expect to be there 30 minutes before soundcheck dressed and ready. noodling as when people begin to noodle around on their horn playing in between songs or whatever. High school kids do that professional bands never noodle.

I didn't know that. They learned that.

If you hear something, you say something nice. We're very different in that when we set up to rehearse, we put the band in a square, with the trombones on one side, and the trumpets and then the saxophone section. Everybody, the singers in the middle, everybody faces each other. And so there's no place to hide. And if you make a mistake, nobody is going to hear it. You know, and I'm not going to tell you how to play the saxophone. I don't play the saxophone. I can barely play the trumpet. But, but there are some going on in measure. 53 Can we take a look at that? Yeah, you know, and and yeah, so. So everybody's had the same number of years. And if it ain't right, you know, please speak up. And it's always about the music. And it's never personal. You're not allowed to say, Gary, you keep screwing up that solo. You're not, you know, you're not allowed to ding anyone. And so we get a lot of great crosstalk and suggestions. What astonishes me about that environment is it also creates a lot of data, a lot of 40% of a person's motivation for participating in volunteer activities like this is social. Okay, so we have to give them time to stat among themselves. Somebody wants to tell the story, somebody wants to hear a joke. You gotta make room for that you can't be all business all let's work work. We're gonna get this done. We're getting away from the show. There's got to be room for that kind of, of, you know, off off mission communication. And I know a rehearsal is going really well when I hear a lot of laughter which totally Trainwreck and ending or thymine or half the band misses the coda to go back to the whatever, and it totally blows up and I was like, Oh, really? From the top to

three. I was gonna bring I was gonna bring up humor earlier when, when you have the we shall, we shall play no songs that suck. Right, also underscores being really clear about what you do and what you don't do. And since then, you've also said that you went out and asked your customers, right. So that's guidance for everybody. Whether those are external customers or internal folks that you're going to serve with this project are this work? Right? Ask folks what they need, what's going to be most important to them? Love this one pager, might not call it a manifesto for your initiative, but folks that are going to play significant roles. What are the expectations? What are the rules of engagement? How is it going to operate? What are your ways of working together? Love this about creating the square and everybody facing each other? And translating that to the workplace? How do we create visibility of what everybody's working on? Right? Do we have shared folders? Do we have shared miro boards? Right, where we're working and we're crafting? How do you call

it even on a bigger scale than that? Look at Apple's new headquarters? Yeah, literally. Right.

Yeah. How do we see each other? How do we create that cross talk, get suggestions going back and forth? Have that forum where it's like, bring your issues? Or, you know, what are you looking to accomplish in the next phase? Let's have everybody their ideas

in we also encourage people to bring your music, you know, if there's, if there's something you'd like to do you suggest it, you know, I'll go find the chart. We'll you know, we'll go by it if we have to. We just we had a suggestion from one of the trumpet players who said, you know, we could feature the trombones or the Pete called that Stanton did. It's called but beautiful. And it was never a hit. But it is so pretty. We should try it. And the first time we played through it, the trombones is big, fat horns in four part army as the fifth, or am I just brought me to tears. The first time I heard it,

it was beautiful.

It really is. But this really beautiful, beautiful piece of music. And so we, you know, as we put it in the lineup, the alto saxophone came in it came to us, oh, I found this chart. And it's outside of our time zone, but it kind of fits our style, and it features the first Alto and I'd like to play it again and again. And so we did, I really try to hold open space for that.

Lovely, lovely, right. So asking team members, what do you want to contribute? Where do you see us taking this? What skills and interest Do you want to explore inside of the work that we're doing? All right. Oh, Orvel Ray, let me tell our listeners a little bit more about you. Orvel Ray,

what must we know? Go ahead. Well, I

Well, thank you as well, I want to meet this guy.

He is he's fast and fascinating.

Yeah, that's my day job. I take people who are experts and help them become authorities and thought leaders and grow their business using my experience as a speaker as an author.

Yeah, and I know you've you've talked about the flat irons Jazz Orchestra, we'll get some some information in the show notes so that folks can see where your regular gigs are and where they might see you in the near future. I'd also love to point them to the link of a video so they can see you playing if

jazz orchestra.com just like it sounds. We have a channel on YouTube with a whole bunch of stuff. You just again, we just released a new CD. We're very proud of it. I'm holding it up here for the video camera. Yeah. And we post our shows regularly on Monday. other YouTube, so you can find us there. If you go to our website flatironsjazzorchestra.com, look in the upper right corner for a big red subscribe button. That'll take your form for your email, and then we'll send you a notice, let you know when we're playing.

Excellent. And I know if you're also interested in talking to Orvel Ray about his day job, they can reach out to you and get an hour of your time a coaching session. How do they do that? Orvel Ray?

Yeah, I'll give anyone an hour just for asking. So if you're a professional and you get that book inside, you is gonna have to come out? Are you thought about using presentations or seminars or public speaking as a way to grow your practice? That's what I do. And if you just send me an email, O R V E L R A Y Orvelray@gmail.com. And I'll get you on my calendar. I'd love to meet you.

Lovely, generous offer. And I k now I learned from you, Orvel Ray, every time we talk. So take him up on that one. Orvel, where you're really describing a safe place to bring your ideas a safe place to learn in front of one another? How do you create that safe space? What allows for that?

You know, I mentioned this manifesto is one of the things that that that we're clear about is, it's always about the music, and it's never personal. And we're just, you know, we're all just having fun. And if, if it's not, if it's not fun for you, then let me know if you know what's going on. Our music director, Doug, he sometimes gets a little wound up and will raise his voice, you know, sometimes and, and I have to take him aside and say, you know, listen, this is, this is a sacred space. This is a place where we come as artists, to explore and try new things and take risks and, and make mistakes and learn and improve. And so you never raise your voice that anyone you'd never be, you know, we required, I have to hold the example. And, and maintain accountability for anyone who misspeaks or crosses that boundary and just remind them, you know, we, we are all committed to this being a safe place. Yeah. And what's what's interesting is that that same ethic carries over onto the stage. So when we get to, you know, we do a show. Somebody misses an Indian or somebody, Mrs. A, it's a bad note or whatever. It's like, okay, yeah, let it go. As long as they're dancing, I don't care.

Yeah. Yeah. We don't have a reaction to that while we're on. And yeah, being being listened to

her, you know, mistakes happen. And because of that, the quality of the performance that we get so much better, because, you know, no, we don't have that performance anxiety going on. We don't you know, people aren't worried about, oh, my God, if I screw up. Right, there's like, Hey, let's go, let's rock let's, let's

lovely, so I'm playing a piano

player. I don't care if I don't care if it's a bad note, just as long as you play like you mean it.

With confidence, it's supposed to be that way. I love this chord and translating this to any work project or initiative. Are you saying it's always about the music? Alright, so having people focused on what's the bigger picture purpose of what we're doing here, folks? Right, what are we committed to? And then I'm hearing as the leader or as the project leader, right, or whoever's the keeper of the culture, right? If someone exhibits a behavior that could shut people down, or could make them feel not safe, making sure that that's addressed. Having that conversation with with someone, right, like, hey, that's, that's not what we're about here. And that could have some negative consequences, and what we're doing and what we're trying to create here,

right. And because of this environment, we attract. We attract some of the best players in the city. Yeah, I, our bass trombone player is working on his master's degree in trombone performance. He's going to wind up in some big city symphony orchestra, one of these days, but can I make that a master's degree in trombone? And he going up at an event center to play for two and a half hours for 50 bucks? Yes, because he wants to be part of this thing. Yeah, he wants to play this music with these people. Because it's just so much fun. And it's such a contrast to the environment of being in an orchestra where you've got a guy with a stick up front, whacking everybody, literally, you know, they, there's, we're all there for the love of the music. And that shows up in the way that the art comes together. And so another principle here, I would add to your list, and maybe the most important idea of this conversation is that the music is not the art. The organization is the art. And it's alive, and it's organic, and it you know, and it breathes, and it moves and it feels and it requires constant attention and commitment. And it's, you know, it's harder to keep alive than tropical fish. Yeah, it's a byproduct. But the band is the art. Yeah,

yeah. Well, I'm just hearing being really present and talking about the special thing that you're creating, and doing together. Celebrate every every milestone, right, let's talk about, hey, we've worked together really well, in these ways. Let's call that out. How do we double down on that? Excellent.

The organization is you whatever business you're in. You really is, as Kevin Robert used to say, you really are all in the people business. And your job is not to, you know, move the boxes or build the product or process the claims. Your job is to keep your team together and keep them happy and to hold open a safe space for them to contribute in the best way that they know how

to recognize those people to have fun to give the trombone player the solo, right, let people shine and have visibility. Right. Let them know that.

Literally when when they do Yeah,

that's a great analogy. One more question. I think it builds on what we're talking about. So you've got 18, folks, or maybe more with your singer, right on this in this orchestra. And everybody's got some of them might have different day jobs. We've got different phases of life. Work might get busy, there might be a new baby or grandbaby in the family, like how do you keep people interested and committed over time?

Well, that's an interesting question. We have a number of players in the band. Now, nine years later, who were there at the beginning. Every time somebody leaves, there's somebody else standing in line often, and we have a list of people who, you know, come to rehearse with us. So they can learn the music. So that they can be first call if somebody's sick, or whatever, has a conflict or they're on vacation. And, and so FTL has really evolved into this kind of this community, this constellation, and we kind of have our core player, but that creates a gravity well, of, you know, I have a spreadsheet of more than 100 musicians, wow, in one capacity or another have come through the band or come and go or they play in other groups or Retrade, music or whatever. So it's it has directly it has evolved out into this this community network that covers the whole music scene from one end of the state to the other. That's really fun. It's never quite the same twice. always evolving.

Yeah, there's a leadership development program that I lead and where we talk about, hey, all of you as people leaders, it's your job to continually attract and engage talent, right? And how do you do that in a way that leverages your strengths that feels appropriate to you that feels aligned with your, with your brand. So that's what I was thinking about when you're like, I've got this list of musicians, right. We always want to have our eye out there, right, who are the great people that have the great talents in our orbits that we might want and need to get involved in some way at some time. Orvel Ray, you have shared so much great guidance through this lens of leading the Flatirons Jazz Orchestra. Let me just recap some of this for our listeners. Giving an invitation right sharing about what you're Are what you're doing so that you can find out who's interested like you did with your open stage, you're really clear on the book, who you are and who you're not. Right What we're not going to be involved in. Because we all know that scope creep can happen so easily check in with your customers from time to time. What kind of dance music do they want to hear? Right? What's working? How could you work better with them? What's your one pager? Right expectations, let's be clear about who we are what we're up to how we're going to work with one another, giving visibility on the team, to what different folks are working on. Give them ways to interact, encourage that cross talk, that it's always about the music, right? It's we're not blaming people, we're looking at the process and the purpose, what we're up to and address when folks are exhibiting behaviors that don't allow the space to be safe and collaborative. It's about the people, recognize them, build them up, give them opportunities for visibility, and know who that who are the next people that you're going to get involved. So much great guidance. I hope that many of our listeners Take a listen to the Flatirons Jazz Orchestra. And thank you for sharing some of your expertise and experience with us today, Orvel Ray.

It's my pleasure, Amy. If I can be of service to any of your listeners to send me an email orvelray@gmail.com and we'll get you on my calendar. It's been a pleasure.

Yeah, been a real pleasure. And thank you for that generous offer to the listeners.