Welcome to the Courage of a Leader, where we dive into the strategies and stories that empower bold leadership. In today's episode, we're getting real about talent retention with Mary Lynn Fayoumi, President and CEO of HR source, Mary Lynn is also the recent recipient of association forums Samuel B Shapiro award for Chief Staff Executive achievement. This is a huge honor recognizing trailblazing visionaries who redefine Leadership Excellence. In this encore episode with Mary Lynn, you'll hear why the smartest organizations are shifting their focus from recruiting harder to retaining better. She shares why retention isn't a project you can check off. It's a continuous process that starts with listening, evolves with intention and thrives on recognition. We talk about the power of data in this episode, both internal and external, and how even simple spot surveys can uncover what your team truly values. You'll learn simple and practical ways to respond meaningfully, show appreciation that sticks and create a culture that your people want to be a part of every single day. If you're ready to lead with openness, reimagine what work looks like now and keep your top talent inspired to stay. This conversation is for you, so I'm glad you're here. Let's jump in.

Mary Lynn Fayoumi is the president and CEO of HR source. She and HR source help their member organizations with a variety of workplace topics. In this episode, we talk about talent retention, and Mary Lynn gives us some excellent food for thought as team leaders or as organizational leaders to retain top talent you Music.

Welcome to the Courage of a Leader podcast. This is where you hear real life stories of top leaders achieving extraordinary results, and you get practical advice and techniques you can immediately apply for your own success. This is where you will get inspired and take bold, courageous action. I'm so glad you can join us. I'm your host. Amy Reilly, now are you ready to step into the full power of your leadership and achieve the results you care about most? Let's ignite the courage of a leader.

Mary Lynn, I know that HR source is supporting its members in talent retention. Are organizations doubling down, putting more focus on strategies that have always worked for them, for retaining their top talent, or are organizations employing new and different kinds of strategies?

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: Yes and yes, they are doing both. They are doubling down and doing a re evaluation of what has worked in the past, but also trying to determine what wasn't working and what employees are looking for. So there's some data out there that I think is so interesting about the fact that employers spend a lot more time and energy on recruitment, then retention, where, logically speaking, right, you don't have to do as much recruitment if you can get retention right. And so we're definitely encouraging our members to spend more time and energy and funnel more resources to looking at what it takes to retain employees. So for years and years, we've had survey data that helps members benchmark their benefits packages. You know, what are they providing? Broaden that out to total rewards. Right? Compensation is getting so much, so much attention right now due to inflationary pressures and the war for talent, we haven't seen wage base wage increases like we're seeing now, you know, since before the last great recession. So a long time, over a decade, you know, over 4% pushing 5% employers are looking at, you know, more traditional base pay, but they're also looking at incentives, stay bonuses, retention bonuses, sign on bonuses, more than annual increase. Basis. So looking at base pay on a more frequent basis than just annually, sometimes to just keep pace, other times, really, to look specifically by job title or department. And this could also be industry specific, based on what the challenges you're facing recruiting and retaining talent in any particular industry niche, more importantly, they're looking at what's lacking or missing, right? This great work from home experience that we've had has, you know, given employers and employees a lot of data about performance, productivity, morale, what has been the impact on their workforce, as well as their employment potential, as well as their business results, and kind of looking at the intersection of those elements to determine what the right formula. There's no one size fits all right. There's a unique formula for each individual, as well as each manager, each department, each organization. So there are many rewards, benefits, attributes, characteristics, all sorts of elements that can help an organization improve their ability to retain employees that might not be in your employee handbook, right? They're the nuances of the day to day interactions of leadership, management, human interactions, collaboration that happen and can either make people feel connected to the organizations they work for and the leaders they follow and the managers they report To, or disconnected and unmotivated and disengaged and looking out into the marketplace to say, what else is out there. This is not the right place for me anymore. I want to see what my options are.

You have already said so many great things, Mary Lynn, and the thing that kept spinning through my head was information. We need some data, right, not only internally, right, our find out from your leaders, find out from your team members, are people feeling connected? You know, what does the data, the performance and the results data tell you, are people engaged? Right? Engagement leads to performance, leads to results, but also the data benchmarking externally, right? How does your total rewards package compare? All right? And making sure you've got that strategy that's focused on retention, not the strategy that's focused on recruiting, right?

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: Because a lot of internal candidates and star performers, people who are happy, you know, incumbents in their current positions are looking at all of these wonderful, cool, generous things that their employers are doing for people who've not even worked a day at the organization. And they're saying, What the heck? What about me? I've been toiling away right heads down, getting my work done, helping your organization, this organization, my organization, be successful, and yet you're giving sign on bonuses, and, you know, higher, you know, opening salaries to those who've not even proven themselves. You know, think about me a little bit. That's why we've been recommending, you know, stay interviews, which are not any different than one on one, open discussions, you know, between managers and employees. Sometimes HR gets involved, but certainly doesn't have to, except for if they need to help facilitate, perhaps the appropriate questions to ask or how the data is going to be used on the back end. But back to the point you made Amy about data and information. It's coming from all different sources, inside and outside of our organization, but it's imperative that we determine how best to use it, how it applies to our organization, what information we can and should act on, and what we might need to leave for a later date. Or isn't that pressing for our own organization? And that's a unique back to the there's no one size fits all. That's a, you know, unique question and answer for each and every organization, and perhaps even down to the department level or the individual relationship between any given manager or supervisor. Teacher and their employees, right? There's a lot of customization there that can have incredible impact as well as results for the organization, if done, right? Yes,

because what works for one team, one function in the organization, one role in the organization, one individual in that role in the organization might not be what works in in other areas, yeah and can yeah and how do we yeah overall, create what works in the culture in the organization, but allowing for that flexibility, giving leaders that autonomy to be able to figure out what's going to work best for their individual team members,

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: right? And it does take effort. It takes time. It takes compassion, empathy, openness to change. You know, it takes more energy, of course, across the board, to figure out all these unique formulas for success, right? It's not one formula, but there are a set of actions behaviors that can be employed consistently that will lead to success, right? One of them, you know, we're talking a lot about today, and I know, you know, gets a lot of play time in your book and in your presentations. And, you know, listening, right? Listening, learning, openness to consideration of various methods of getting things done. There's no white way. There are a lot of different ways that you can move forward and with regard to retention, the fact that organizations are not just looking at the traditional techniques that used to retain employees, but considering the fact that employees are very different than they once were. We have all been fundamentally changed by what we've been through over the past couple years, and we've got to add that to our conversations and to what our reinvented workplaces look like. I recently wrote an article about, you know, work, the workplace, is no longer about the place, yes, right, so just even opening our imaginations to what the work life looks like for our team members in a much more organic way than we ever would have in the past is, I think a pandemic plus a really positive things that's happened. And I think those organizations that are taking the time and putting the resources into being open minded are going to reap the benefits, right? Their retention is going to come more easily to them than those are who are hardwired to stick with their very traditional work models, very traditional policies, very traditional benefits, are probably going to either have some eye opening departures that might be a Wake up call, or, you know, they might be, uh, limited in who they're able to attract and or retain going forward.

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: it is my pleasure. Amy, I always enjoy our time together. Me

too. So I'm hearing, even though employers, you're you're feeling the pressure to do something, they'll have the knee jerk reactions, take the time, get the data externally, internally. And I'm also like, I'm saying to leaders, it's not a one and done, right? We're we're all getting used to new rhythms in our lives. And you and I were talking earlier about getting used to travel again. And what do we not enjoy as much that we used to really enjoy? And maybe there's some new benefits that we didn't used to experience in the past. It feels different, like you said, we have been fundamentally changed. So how do you keep getting this information from your employees? There

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: are so many ways. So there used to be the well known technique managing by walking around, right?

Remember that one that's a long walk these days, it is a long walk.

Oh, realistic. I'm loving this. Mary Lynn, want to underscore that, like, Sure, look online. Listen to this podcast. Hear all the different ideas and strategies, approaches that you can take, but really stop and reflect what's going to work for you. Right? If you're a senior leader in an organization or you're a leader of a team, right? What? What is going to work for your leadership, the individuals that you work with, and the kind of work get that you all do? I was also thinking, if we don't implement 27 things at once, Mary Lynn, then maybe we'll add. See which levers are having the most impact.

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: Yeah, so we recently took a big experiment and totally switched up one of our big events. Okay? And what we learned from it was, we to your point of levers. We switched so many levers at one time, which was a calculated risk, but it's made it difficult to measure which of those lever switches impacted our results right where we if we had perhaps only moved a few of the levers at one time. You know, sometimes you have to blow the whole thing up and start from scratch. But we had a very successful formula, but given the times and the need to, you know, risk be, you know, take some risks, mix it up. We decided to make a whole bunch of changes all at once, which has made it challenging to measure the impact of those changes. So to your point, Amy, try things, realize what changes you're making or what levers you're pulling, and then evaluate and call it either a success. Make further revisions or learn from your mistakes or failures, right?

Yeah, and maybe a time for a spot survey. I love that name when you said that, I was like, yes, because to the point that rhythms are changing in our lives, and what works for an individual employee today might not be what works for them even a month from now, right, right? So the spot surveys, and then we don't get over surveyed as well, because you've got the 170 questions survey, the totally comprehensive one that's coming out now, you know, we're doing what's right for our organization. So maybe there is, like, a big data dump that you want, and you're ready for it, right? You're you're open to pulling a few levers at once, but also not over surveying, right? Because

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: there's definitely survey fatigue, right? And there's all a detrimental effect of surveying, gathering data and not acting on it. So a really important step is if you have data that you are have read, have have analyzed, have synthesized, but you are choosing for business reasons, financial reasons, Whatever your reasons are, it's important to then follow up with your employees to let them know. Thank you for sharing your information. Thank you for providing input. These are the reasons that we are not currently able to act upon this valuable information that you are willing to share with us. Nice. So don't forget that that step because the act of surveying, in and of itself, like I jokingly say, like, if inviting people, even if they can't come to something, you do get some, you know, brownie points for the invite. Same thing is true of surveys, you know, asking and inviting people to contribute. But then where the analogy doesn't work anymore is, you know, in an invite, someone RSVPs No, it's on them. With the survey, they've given you something, right? They've sent you the gift, then it's imperative on you to send the thank you note and to act upon that gratitude by by letting them know, this was very helpful input, but due to fill in the blank circumstances, yeah, we currently are unable, or the timing isn't right. We may be able to consider this in the future, but currently, we chose these three initiatives, these three benefits, these are the things we're going to be using in the short run. But again, thank you. Thank you. Send

your thank you notes. I love it. Mary. Lynn, yeah, and a number of the clients that I'm working with as they're choosing hybrid approaches, how many days to be in the office, which teams need to do what? After being open and listening to data, also talking about how this is a trial period we are going to try this, and the acknowledgement that, again, we might not even know what we want a few months from now. So. Let's try. Let's get some more data. Let's see how we all feel about this, and we're going to continue to make adjustments. So not exactly you know you you you get your strategy, you check it off, you've got your data, and it's set in stone, right?

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: It's a work in progress, and it will continue to be a work in progress, right? The only constant is change, and what another little pandemic? Plus, I think, is that leaders, if they are being authentic, are admitting that they their crystal ball doesn't work very well either, and so they're being much more transparent and humble about the fact that we don't know either, right? We don't know what the next surge is going to bring. We don't know if bringing people back to the office is going to boost morale and productivity. We're going to keep experimenting, and we're going to stay open to additional changes. Hang with us. Work with us, you know, keep us informed. Give us a chance. Realize we I'm speaking as leaders. Make mistakes too. We're all fumbling through this together, and you know that will make us more successful, sticking together instead of working against each other, we're all trying to learn and figure out how to be the most successful given today's circumstances, which are today's circumstances, right, not next weeks or next months. We simply don't know. Yes,

yes. What's popping into my mind as you're talking Maryland is, it's a process. It's not a project. This isn't a project of figuring out how we're going to retain talent, and then we've, we've got our things, and we and we check them off and follow them forever. It's a process,

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: right? And I'm guessing, I don't know for sure, we could probably do a little research on it, but that whole work in process, I'm guessing, is a manufacturing term taken from right post world war two days or World War Two, and that is, you know, so ever relevant, right process, journey. You know, sometimes people complain about these words being overused, but it is an evolution and right, the willingness desire, energy and enthusiasm to continue these processes and to not rely upon just what we think we know. But back to one of our earlier points, to continue to scan the environment, gather data, confirm with our stakeholders, all of those things are so critical, probably more critical than they ever have been, and my hope is that we don't get so comfortable again and complacent in whatever stage we end up in Next that we're not continuing to incorporate some of these really important activities, the listening, the reinventing, the pulling of the Levers, the remeasuring we don't, you know, forget about all of those techniques that will serve and have served us well, well that will continue to serve us well, that we don't start resting on our laurels and go into autopilot again and stop reflecting on the fact that this is a process and will continue to be a process.

Yeah, so you've said a number of times, a number of ways that all leaders listening out there, right? Be open, truly, right? This is a time to check our assumptions. Really listen anything else. Mary Lynn, that you would offer you know a team leader out there who's listening has five to nine direct reports really wants to retain their top talent beyond be open, listen, stay tuned in. Keep scanning.

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: Yeah. So one of the most important things that I don't think I've spent enough time on today so your question just triggered it is recognize their performance, give them regular feedback. Yes, right? One of the best ways, the most important ways, you can show people that you value them, is to give them attention. Right? Don't let your superstars or even your B players be. Left to their own devices and not pay attention to them. Don't think they're plugging along. They're doing fine. They know I love them and I think they're awesome. Tell them. Show them regularly, right? Give them opportunities for growth and development. So it's not just about asking them how they are. Tell them how you think they are right. Share, share your appreciation. Give them specific feedback. I was at a recent event, and I ran into someone who gave me a compliment about one of my team members in terms of a search that we had recently worked on. And right away, when I got back, I emailed her, I emailed her boss, and I told them both, right? Thank you for representing HR source so well, look at the difference you're making. You're, you know, improving our reputation. You're leading to future referrals. I mean, those make that a regular part of your practice. When someone steps up and don't just give atta girls, atta boys, give them specific feedback. Thank you for doing blank. You right? Your performance? Yeah, yes, I love it. Most important got, I mean, that's always been critical, but with a lot of people who are leaving saying, you know, I didn't really feel like my boss, my organization, knew how hard I worked. They didn't care that much about me personally. You know, I I needed to hear more. I want to be appreciated. I wanted to be shown and have some sort of recognition for the hard work I'm doing. So back to the don't assume that people know how you feel. Now again, tell them how you feel, show them how you feel, and that will make a difference.

I love it. I love it. And so many leaders and organizations are focused right now. And how does our culture feel as the workplace is not the workplace anymore. It's a different kind of work environment. If you catch an employee doing something that positively impacts the culture, right? Really be on the lookout for that and reward those individuals. And we can get everybody on the team, everybody in the organization, engaged in creating the kind of culture that they want, right? You want to be included in what's going on in another area of the organization? Well, how are you including people in your department and your expertise definitely

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: so critical and not that time consuming or hard to do, but people get really wrapped up in their own to do list and their own agenda, and sometimes they it'll get overlooked, right? Exactly. So making that an important part of your daily to do's to reach out to someone, pick up the phone, uh, just call someone and let them know. Send them a quick note. There's so many ways to let your team members know that you appreciate them, that you've noticed their hard work, that their contributions matter. Love it.

Mary, Lynn, you've given us so much great information today. Be open listening spot surveys, I love that recognize performance. Send your thank you notes. After you do a survey, let let folks know, what are you what are you not able to follow up on and why? And choose what works for your team, for your organization, you can get a lot of great advice out there, and it's got to be the advice that fits for you definitely. Can you say thank you for your time today. Mary Lynn, always appreciate being able to spend time with you. Agreed.

Mary Lynn Fayoumi: Amy, interesting conversation on a topic that's so near and dear to both of our hearts, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Courage of a Leader podcast. If you'd like to further explore this episode's topic, please reach out to me through the courage of a leader website@www.courageofalleader.com I'd love to hear from you. Please take the time to leave a review on iTunes that helps us expand our reach and get more people fully stepping into their leadership potential. Until next time, be bold and be brave, because you've got the courage of a leader. You.