Welcome to our podcast series UNFILTERED. This

is where we have courageous conversations about topics that

are not always discussed in the mainstream or in the workplace.

Here we strip away the polished surface and

dive into the raw, messy and deeply human topics that we

don't think it talked about often enough.

We are your UNFILTERED hosts. I'm Amy from

the Courage of a Leader podcast,

and I'm Daphna from Leadership Live podcast

with two coaches from two sides of the world who believe that

real growth happens in the uncomfortable, unspoken moments

from Workplace trauma to dealing with major life

changes and taboo topics like grief, imposter syndrome and

menopause. This is the space where nothing is off limits.

So if you're ready for honest, bold and

sometimes messy conversations, let's get into it.

Today. We are having an unfiltered conversation about

grief, what it is, what it feels like, why we struggle to talk

about it, and how leaders can show up with humanity when they

and the others around them experience loss.

Grief is something every single one of us

will face, whether it's directly or indirectly, and yet it's the

one conversation we almost never have. We tell people to be

strong, to move on, to find closure. But grief doesn't

follow neat rules. It's messy, it's waves, it's Lacher and

tears in the same breath and as leaders, colleagues, friends and

parents, we don't get to escape it. Our humanity comes with us

into every room we walk into.

Yes, I'm so glad we're having this conversation

today. Daphna and we do want to acknowledge for listeners that

this conversation might feel tender. It might stir up

memories, emotions for you, but our hope is that it gives us all

permission to be human and to show up with courage for

ourselves and for those around us when grief is in the space,

not to fix it, but to be with it and to remind you and those that

you're with that you're not broken. You are grieving.

Yeah, yeah. It's a really, really important

conversation, because I actually want to start off by saying that

I know you've experienced it directly, and I'm sure possibly

be sharing some of those stories with us. For me, I'm very

grateful that I haven't had any direct sort of first circle

experience of it, but in second circles, and the situation that

we're living in right now, in a war zone, there is grief and

loss all around us, and it's a constant part of our present

day. Also working with clients that have experienced Lacher,

I'm sure you have as well. So I think it's such a valuable

conversation, because it's a conversation that people really,

I think, don't know how to deal with and how to have. It doesn't

come from that lack of care, but rather, I don't know what to say

in this particular moment. It's too difficult

well, and I think we can get so afraid of saying the

wrong thing, of making it worse, of triggering upset or memories

or Oh no, I'm going to put them on the spot and they're going to

think that I expect them to talk about this now that we will will

shy away from it and do nothing when that might feel not so

great for the person who is grieving

and actually speaking to people, I sometimes

see that people are worried that if they're going to ask a

question or say something about the loss, they'll remind the

person who's experienced the loss of their loved ones, and

that will make them even sadder. And I think that's actually I

just want to bring that up because that's totally

unrealistic, because loss lives with the with the grieving

person all the time. You are not going to remind them that they

lost their sibling, parent, child, friend, whatever it is,

you're not going to remind they know exactly. Much Yes, more

important to say than to be scared that all of a sudden

grief will be in the room.

Yeah, yes, exactly, definitely. I'm well aware that

my father and my sister are no longer with us on this planet.

I'm well aware you're not gonna like all of a sudden. Me of that

exactly, and I had forgotten I would say, in fact, I'm well

aware. Now, this might not be true for everybody, but I'm well

aware if I haven't seen someone since my sister passed, that's

the most recent, and then that kind of feels weird to me if we

haven't seen each other in a while. While you're close enough

to me to know that I've experienced that loss and we

don't talk about it, yeah, that actually feels weirder and

harder for me than someone saying something. Yeah, I

think what you're saying is so important,

Amy, because what you're actually saying is it is such a

part of your reality. It's not that someone's going to remind

you, it is such a part of your reality, and I've also seen how

it changes you in some way, grief or the loss of a loved

one, all of a sudden has to, I guess, the grieving person

redefines their identity and re shapes their life. Now without

this person. So when you're seeing someone for the first

time since you've lost your sister, you feel very different,

and you want that to be acknowledged, because your life

is completely different. And not acknowledging that, just

carrying on as if nothing's happened and everything's

exactly the same, hurts, I would imagine that really hurts,

yeah, like this happened, it was overwhelming,

so so sad, like had I mean, I'm just thinking these

reverberations, like in in my life. So yeah, for that to not

be acknowledged feels, I don't know, like there's this major

thing that happened and shook up my world and my family, and, you

know, so many things feel different. Yeah, like I'm, like,

what? We're not going to talk about that now, of course, I'm a

processor, and, you know I'm I will speak things out loud, but

I've always thought that a simple acknowledgement, like,

Hey, I haven't seen you in person since your sister passed.

I just wanted to acknowledge that, and I'm so sorry for that

loss. You say that thing, and then you'll see if the other

person wants to spend any time there or not, right? Because

that other the person can respond with like, Oh, I really

appreciate it. Yeah, it was a tough time. How are you? I see

you on a Troy, you know, like, you'll see how much time they

want to spend on it. Or, you know, might be that they want to

go into that conversation for a little bit, and it might be that

their eyes tear up, or there's an emotional reaction, and that

does not mean that you did anything wrong, right?

Very good. Good. Point that you bring up

there, if there is an emotional reaction, just let it be, you

know. And I think that the invitation is to say, I'm here.

I'm here with you. I don't need to say anything. I just

acknowledging the pain and saying, Yeah, that's tough, and

I'm here for you, if you want to talk, if you want to go out for

a coffee, if you want any, if you need anything, I'm here. I

think that's all that needs to be said,

yeah, yeah. And those tears coming up in the eyes

might even be like, Oh my gosh, this is so great. You're

acknowledging this. I'm feeling the connection this moment like

this actually feels really warm and sweet to me that you're,

yeah, you're putting yourself out there to have this

connection.

You know, it makes me think about social

settings and work settings, and I think it's important to look

at both. But the story that comes to mind for me is that we

were actually invited to a dinner at a friend's of ours,

and they invited someone who had lost his wife and two children

in a horrible terrorist attack shooting, and there was this big

elephant in the room. He was an incredible person. He was so

open and talking. And, you know, the conversation was flowing. I

remember we afterwards, we spoke about it, us and our friends,

and we were a little bit cautious. Do we say something?

Do we not say something? What do we do? Do we pretend just have

regular conversation with this man who's lost half his family,

and as I say, it's this elephant in the room. Parts of us want to

just say, Let's carry on as normal, pretend nothing

happened. Parts of us want to acknowledge that this big thing

happened in his life. And at one point I just said, I said to

him, you know, I just want to appreciate the energy that you

are bringing and the inspiration and just being with you at the

table today with everything that's happened has been a

privilege and an honor for all of us. And he just said, Thank

you, and we moved on, and he spoke a little bit about his

family, and he started to share a little bit more. And my friend

turned around to me after that, she said, Thank you so much for

saying that. Yeah, elephant in the room. And once it was named,

it was named, as you said just now. Yeah. He set the tone for

where the conversation would go. Does he want to share memories?

Does he want to talk about what his life is like, or does he

want to just continue and have lovely dinner party

conversation? And it was just very important to name it, to

acknowledge it. It's here, so let's just acknowledge it.

That seemed like a very beautiful and appropriate

way to acknowledge and that's what I heard when you were

sharing the words that you said with him. I just felt like I

naked. You know, was acknowledgement you I think you

said his energy. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, an acknowledgement,

and then let the person take it where they will. And I don't

know, I think we get concerned about saying the wrong thing. I

think it's worse if we don't say something and connect with the

person, and if you do get it wrong, I think you'll get that

feedback immediately. And then if you can be with that feedback

and say, Oh, I'm stumbling over my words here, or, Oh, it sounds

like that was the wrong thing to say, How can I support you? I

think, you know, asking a question, right? Or whoever is

closest to that gentleman who's coming to the dinner party,

reaching out and being, you know, like, how do we invite you

in in the best way? Because, listen, you know, there is this

elephant in the room. We all are aware of the devastation that

you've experienced recently. How do we help you? How do we not

botch this up?

And the other thing is, I have to say,

sometimes when you know someone close to me, and unfortunately,

we've had so many people close to us who've lost, lost

children, and

yeah, in case, any, in case, any listeners are not

aware, Daphna is in Israel in the middle of a war zone right

now. So you may not have lost an immediate family member, but you

are surrounded by loss currently

and loss, and sometimes you don't have the

words, and sometimes I get hugely emotional just being in

the presence of someone who is grieving in this way. And I've

also have really just sometimes looked at the person given a hug

and that's it. I've also said, you know, just wanting to throw

out some things that I've done, I don't know, and I'd love to

hear from you where it lands for you. But I've also, like, looked

the person in the eyes and said, I don't even know what to say to

you right now. I just share a little bit of the pain that

you're experiencing. I think that's beautiful, okay,

yeah, showing up real, yeah,

exactly. You don't have to have specific

words or specific sentences. It's really, what are you

feeling right now? Share a little bit of that, and I guess

it might not provide comfort and it might not bring the person

back, but it's shared pain somehow, understanding, seeing

the pain and not trying to make it go away?

Yeah, no, you're taking me back to being at the

wake of my loved ones, you know? And when, when people just walk

up and their eyes are filled with tears and they're just

grabbing for my hands, or they're just shaking their head,

or they're, you know, they're like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm

whatever they're saying, like when they're showing up as a

real human being, and that, you know, that feels better than,

yeah, something that feels practiced or patterned, or the

condolence phrase,

Amy, I am thinking about, what are the

things maybe also worth just mentioning, but what are the

things that are big? No nos like, just don't say this.

Please, just don't say this. What is there anything that

comes to mind for you? Hard to hear things? Yeah, because what

I mentioned in the intro is that move on time to move on, be

strong,

at least they're in a better place. At least.

That is my worst. And I think it actually

doesn't only apply to grief. It applies to anything difficult

that a person is going through. Please, just don't start your

sentence with at least. I think it's the worst thing that that a

person going through a hard time, and, you know, even more

so for grieving people, at least, yeah, I mean, I've shared

personal story from me where I suppose that is a kind of a

loss, but when my my baby was born, I've got three children, I

had major complications and nearly lost. Lost my life, and I

had to have a hysterectomy, and that meant I couldn't have any

more children. And when people heard that, they would go, well,

at least you've got three beautiful, healthy kids. And

even that was hard for me to hear, yes, I've got three

beautiful, healthy kids, and I love them very, very much. But

my choice was taken away of whether I did want to have

another one or where I wanted to go, then it's not an at least

statement, just be with me in my moment of pain and difficulty.

Yes, yes. And what I mean? What is it that people

think that with one sentence that they say, that they're all

of a sudden gonna throw you into a positive, emotional space

about it's gonna make me

feel better about it, right?

Yeah, well, and maybe that is the thing to keep in

mind, that there's nothing to fix. There's nothing to fix.

There's nothing to make better or make worse, right? The

situation

not your responsibility to make people

feel better or to make it go away. You cannot make it go

away. You cannot. And I think really reinforcing what we said

earlier, it's messy. Grief is messy. There are ups and downs.

It hits you in the most unlikely moments. You know, you could be

driving in the car and hearing a song on the radio, and then you

are overcome with emotion and pain and tears, and that's okay

embrace the messiness of it, and it's not some person, friend,

relative, whatever it is that's going to come, and you'll say

the thing that will make everything okay again, that's

not going to happen. I

couldn't be that person. Yeah, and yeah. And

everyone is on their own journey. I know I struggle, and

I will continue to struggle with the messiness of it. I'm a type

A personality. I want to project manage this. I want I want to

fix it. I want to have it not affect me as much as it does at

times. And every person's going to have a different kind of

journey with that, learning how to for me, it's surrender to the

grief, yeah, and to be with it and learn to ride the waves,

the wave. I want to, I'd love to just share

a little bit about maybe some of the process, because grief is a

process. And from a Jewish religion perspective, we have

our seven days where you actually it's called Shiva.

Shiva is seven. So it's seven days from the moment that the

person died, loved ones. And this is first order, loved ones,

okay, okay, so it's parents, siblings, children. You sit at

home for seven days, you don't get up, you don't go anywhere,

you don't go to the shops, you don't cook. You don't do you

literally are sitting there. You sleep, okay? And people come to

pay their respects and come and visit you at home, your

community usually makes sure that you have meat meals and

food sorted out, but for those seven days, your world stops.

Okay? And then there's the the next stage is the 30 days. But

after the seven days, you do get up and you go back to work and

you go back to your life. And this is something that I think

is worth speaking about, because, yeah, whether it's, you

know, according to the new Jewish faith and custom, you do

seven days, or whether you go back to work, whenever it is

that you go back to work, but what happens then, when you have

to reintegrate into life and you're still carrying the

heaviness of this grief, I think that is something that's worth

talking about as well, just spending a little bit of time

with and I don't know if you want to share anything about how

that was for You, because it's a very big switch where you feel

your life has changed completely, and yet the world

goes on. There's still traffic jams and there's still work and

there's still supermarkets and there's still crying children or

whatever it

is, you know, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that there

is this thing in our society, globally and across religions

and faiths where, like we, we come together to support the

person in the initial days, maybe even weeks. But then it

will go away, and there will be certain circles in your life,

who might never, ever mention it again. Having my own business,

it's nice to come back to work. It's, you know, I've created

work that I love and enjoy, so I wanted to come back to it and

engage my mind and my energy into my work, and it's had

significant impacts on my energy, and I might not, might

not be able to have as many conversations in a row, or I

might end my days sooner. I mean, I can see it looking back

now. I mean, after my father passed. I pretty much did what I

needed to do for my kids, did what I needed to do for my

clients, and then slept,

you know? And, yeah, that's actually very

similar to a trauma response. Is you manage what you need to

manage, the very bare minimum of what you know you need to do to

get through the day, and that's it. You have no capacity for

more than that. I have to say, like I've had days when I'm

experiencing that, with the level of trauma that we're

experiencing in our country at the moment, it's like really low

flame. I know for this period, the low flame days do what I

need to do, and that's it, not expect anything beyond that. And

I think that's also an important point, because I think if we

fighting that, and we think, what's wrong with you? Why

aren't you doing more things or extra things, or, you know, why

aren't you more okay, inspiring, inspired, or whatever. Why

aren't you able to handle you used to be able to handle. Why

are you sleeping so much for people who are grieving, it's

really okay. It's normal. Your body is going through something.

There's a process that's happening to

know that, and gosh, if you just have a little bit of

conversation about it, because now, Daphna, you use the frame a

low flame day, right? So now I have that language, and I can

check in with my friend, Daphna. How are you doing? Is it? I'm

sensing it might be a low flame day, right? Do you want to talk

about awesome?

Would that be? That is awesome, that's awesome.

Checking in. You know, that's caring. That's really caring.

I'd like to transition a little bit more to

the workplace staff now, because I think many leaders listing

might think that's not my place, right? I you know, I'm not a

therapist. But again, I think going back to this term and this

approach, we've been using acknowledgement, right? When

someone comes back from bereavement leave, just

acknowledging that, yes, you've been off on bereavement leave.

You know, I know, gosh, it's got to be tough losing your father,

whoever it is. I know the bereavement leave is over, but

the bereavement is not over. I love that. How are you doing

bereavement leave? So I just wanted to

emphasize what you just said, the bereavement leave is over,

but the bereavement isn't over, and it takes a long, long time.

So I think that's really important to acknowledge.

There's the first of everything in the first year, the first

birthday, the first holiday, the first anniversary, the first

whatever it is, so many firsts that are going to be missed. So

that bereavement takes time and there is no deadline on it.

There is no, you know, this is how long it takes.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, Daphna, I had once I was saying

something about my father and the loss for me and somebody

went, how long ago did your dad die? Oh, I felt so judged in

that moment, and I haven't forgotten it, and that that did

not feel like support. But how? How lovely, if like going into a

holiday season you know a leader would could say to a team member

or even to the team collectively. I know many of you

have lost loved ones, right? And that can be really tough around

the holidays. Let us know how you're doing. Let us know what

you need. Let us know if it's a down day.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I know I

worked with two clients who had a very, very special bond with

their father, and I remember my one client going back to work.

And, you know, I think there's something about grief in that

it's invisible because people prefer and want and expect you

to just now show up at work and be you and be okay. And yeah,

she's struggled for a long time to get back into feeling like

her regular, let's say, high performing leader that she is

and and was, but it took her a long, long time, yeah, and it's

exactly what, but that was like six months ago. It was a year

ago, and she had this continue, as we said, the waves, you know,

one day she'd wake up and it would just hit her again, and

she felt low flame day.

So, yeah, we and so def, I want to bring up a

another question that some listeners might be wondering. So

we've talked about low flame or down day. What if someone's

flaring up? What if they're angry? What if they're

irritable? What if they're something's coming up for them,

and it's coming out in that way. So this question of you know,

you. A colleague, or you're a leader on a team, and wow,

someone is prickly in a way that they're not usually. Let's talk

about what we do there. I

think that's actually a good point. It's

true. Because I think that, you know, we assume that grief is

going to show up as feeling down, feeling sad, but it might

not, and that's actually a really good point. And I would

add to that, also it might show up completely normal, like, I'm

fine, oh yeah, yeah. Like, I'm marching, yeah.

Let's move on. Yeah. I think those are good

good questions. Those are good questions. And I think that, I

mean, for me, what's coming up with a glaring app person is to

actually have the conversation, like, sit down and say, How are

you doing? I wanted to know and not I think it's more triggering

if you're going to say, Listen, I've noticed that, you know

you're not yourself today. Oh, that's another statement that I

really, really dislike. And notice that you're not yourself

today. What does that mean? So just, just to just check in and

say, I want to check in with you. How are you doing

really? How are you doing really? Exactly. How

can we support you? You know, I think from even

the leaders or HR perspective, to offer maybe help and

counseling beyond, you know, what I can do for you at work

that's also an option,

yes, so acknowledging giving empathy and knowing what

the resources are that your company provides that employees

have access to. You don't have to diagnose, you don't have to

be a therapist, but be with the person in those moments and make

sure that they're aware of or encourage them to take advantage

of any resources or support that are available. That's why

they're there.

And you know, Amy, what's coming up for me is

a story that wasn't one of mine, but a colleague of mine who said

that they noticed all of a sudden, one of the employees was

being really difficult. A manager was being really

difficult, moody. They didn't know what had happened. All of a

sudden, from being quite, yeah, amiable, lovely, connecting

person, she was ratty, grumpy, doing all these things, and no

one knew actually what had gone on. What is going on with her,

and this was over a prolonged period of time, this behavior

pattern or change in behavior that shows showed up. And what

her leader did, or her manager did, was they just pulled her

aside one day and just started a connecting conversation, not

addressing necessarily the change in behavior, or anything

like that. Just saying, How are you doing? What's going on in

your life? How are things for you? And again, from a very

genuine place. Because I think sometimes this can also come

across as not great, where you know kind of you're going with,

something's changed, what's going on? No, you actually are

wanting to connect and really understand more about what is

going on in this person's life? And they discovered that this

woman had lost someone close to her, and no one knew about no

one hadn't told anyone she was

trying to soldier on. And yeah, she

was trying to soldier on, not even realizing

the impact that this was having around her. But she was carrying

so much with her, and that just obviously wasn't working. So

when she had opened up, they came up with a plan of how she

can feel supported, whether she needed to take time off or to

reduce hours or whatever it is, or work a little bit from home,

or just be gentler with herself, because she was still placing

these same performance expectations, which were just

unrealistic for her. So for me, it's about conversation. Start

the conversation from a genuine place of caring and wanting to

connect and curiosity. Be curious, rather than critical.

How's that?

Yes,

instead of critical,

exactly, we'll add another C word in there. Be

courageous. Just be the other person and whatever is coming up

for them. And I know Daphna today with our conversation

around grief, we were focusing on the loss of loved ones, but

we also recognize that there's all kinds of grief that our

world creates for us. And yeah, people are grieving a lot of

things right now in our world. Yeah, whether there's been a

loss of a loved one recently or not, asking these questions of

ourselves, of our loved ones around us and of our colleagues

and team members is important,

yeah, and I want to, I know we've said this,

but I want to again, re emphasize the making space for

it. Make naming what's in the room, naming the grief,

acknowledging it and making. And giving it space. Because when we

don't, it can come out in other ways that are either just

unhelpful, unproductive, whatever else, but it can also

just be something that a resentment that a person will

carry with them, the grieving person will carry with them,

because it hasn't been addressed and it hasn't been named, and

that also has an impact make space for it, as scary as it may

be, or even saying the wrong thing, or whatever it is, just

acknowledge and give it space.

Yeah, and you'll get a signal from the other person

about how much space they do want to give it in that moment.

But also know they they might not be able to say more or go

there in that moment, but that doesn't mean that they don't

want space a week from now, a month from now,

yeah, knowing that you're there, I think

something else that's actually coming out for me that we

haven't mentioned is that often when people are faced with a

loss and are grieving, I think bigger questions come into play

in their lives. Yeah, what is the meaning of this? What is the

meaning of life? What are we doing here? Why did this happen?

Why is this happening to me, like some of those really

bigger, what is the point? What is the point of this? What is

the point of getting up in the morning? What is the point of

going to work? You know, those are things like the kind of much

bigger meaning of life questions that can also come up for

people. And I think that, you know, if it does, having those

conversations can also be very, very useful, very helpful.

Absolutely not that we have answers.

I know, no, yeah, and that person might not in that

moment, but they're, they're important questions, and

I think we've spoken about how to support

others, but what about a leader who they themselves are going

through grief. How should a leader show up in their own

grief? Yeah, I'm kind of thinking the message of Be

strong. Be strong for my team. You know, what's the rally? You

know, don't show the emotions.

Yeah, what a nice opportunity to acknowledge the

humanity in that and a leader saying, hey, this recent loss in

my life is affecting me in ways that I didn't expect, and I

don't know you can share with others what would be supportive

for you, right? So someone could say, like, I don't want to talk

about it for the next couple of weeks. Or they might say, yeah,

hey, if I'm not showing up like myself, would you call that out

for me? Like you don't seem like yourself today, or just name

whatever would be supportive, or name what's going on for you.

Like I'm

not feeling as motivated, I might not have as

much energy. Please know that it doesn't mean that I don't care

about you, or I don't care about the work, but I'm just kind of

finding it hard right now to bring the same level of passion

and energy to my day to day. Yeah, you know,

and I think that we've turned the spotlight

on the grieving person, and I think that's really important as

well for the person who's grieving, for the person who's

going through it, to also be able to say, what, what would be

supportive for them? What did they need? What do I need in

this moment, in this time? Yeah, patience. Do I need

understanding? Do I need you to check in on me? You know, I know

with again, with us bringing it into our environment. And people

would ask, What can I do? How can I be supportive? How can I

support? And I'd say, actually, if you checked in from time to

time, that would be really awesome. And that's something

that a person can ask for. Just check in with me, just ask how

I'm doing. Some people might not need that. Some people might

need something else. But really also think it's important to say

to to the grieving person, as hard as it may be to just be

able to express what are your needs at this moment? What are

your needs at this point in time? What would be supportive

would it be? I know someone very close to me who their needs are.

I don't want to talk about it. Don't ask me. Don't ask me.

Don't say Don't, don't bring it up. If I need something, I will

bring it up and I will ask you for help. I know you're there

for me. I know you love me. So if I need it, I will ask, and

that's also fine, but to be able to express

that yes, and I know that I would have times where

I'm like, I don't know, yeah, right. And then then, if you're

their leader, in that moment, you could say. Great, if you

come up with anything, let me know. I'd like to check in again

next week, right? And they kind of let them know, yeah, I'm

going to be here on an ongoing basis. I'm going to ask again.

Yeah, I think we've covered quite a lot in

today's conversations, and it's been really just feels very open

and connecting to even talk about this with you, and just

hearing some of your own experiences. And I'm thinking,

you know, is there anything that you want to still say? Is there

anything that we haven't said, or anything that's coming up for

you that's important to mention at this point?

I think I would just underscore that grief isn't

tidy. It doesn't fit into a defined time frame. We've said

the word acknowledge a number of times, which I think is

important. And just know that it, you know, it's it's not neat

and tidy, it's messy. It comes in waves. It can change us and

just be gentle with ourselves and with those around us.

Yeah, I love that. I really love that. Yeah,

I think grief is part of life. It's part of life. It's always

going to be around us in some way. You know, as I said, either

directly or indirectly, but it's there. And just knowing that

grief is also something that changes you as a person, but

maybe also in terms of growth compassion. Yeah, and I know

earlier we before you started recording, we spoke a little bit

of, I don't know if this is the right wording to say, what are

the gifts grief and loss? Yeah, I think that there's definitely

something around growth and maybe also realizing you don't

need to go through it alone, that there are people who love

you, care about you and want to support you through it. I don't

know if there's anything you want to add.

Yeah, yeah,

I would say that. Well, probably I didn't experience the

growth or the gift. Wasn't cognizant of that for quite some

time. Yeah, rise, that might be something to take a look at

little further down the line, but I know it has made me more

open to being with folks and their emotions. I am less

judgmental of what's going on with other folks. I mean, I'll

tell you candidly, and I feel a bit ashamed admitting this, but

if I would be at a funeral or services and someone who wasn't

close to the person who had died was really crying, and, you

know, visibly, maybe even loudly, upset. I'm like, gosh,

what is going? Yeah, right. You weren't even that close. Now I

know, right. I do not know what this experience is triggering in

them. And everybody has their loss, and everybody experiences

differently. Some people are super quiet and private about

it. Some people are very loud and want to talk to many people

about it, and it's all fine, right? It's all somebody's way.

So having more compassion for myself and how loss has affected

me, having more compassion for others and however, they're

showing up in the moment. And don't always do this perfectly,

but I think, you know, if all of us can remind ourselves, assume

good intent, right, there's been a change in behavior, and all of

a sudden, ooh, they're being Prickly, or they're being a bit

of a jerk today. Ooh, you know, they probably didn't wake up

thinking, I want to be a jerk today. There might be something

something else. There's something something going on

there. And how can you connect in a real way to open up the

possibility of being able to provide support that works?

Yeah, you know what's coming up for me, and

probably a good, good thing to leave our listeners with to

think about, and that is that certainly with people you know

I've spoken to around the whole topic of grief and loss of loved

ones, is that there's always an enormous appreciation for The

time that they've had with this person? Yeah, even when it was

too short, just too short. And you're talking about a lot of

people who've lost children, it's just it's always too short.

It's always the person was taken too early. But if you ask them,

would you rather not have loved and. Lost, then not loved at

all, then loved and lost. And they always say the appreciation

for the time that we had is not anything that I would want to

take away, and I would definitely rather love and lose.

And for me, that is really a wake up call to say, Who do you

need to say something to today. Don't wait until tomorrow. Don't

think you've got your whole life ahead of you, and hopefully you

really, really do. But don't wait to say the important

things, whether it's something that upsets you, or just saying,

I love you, or just saying, This is how much you mean to me, and

this is how important you are in my life. Say those things. I

know that I've become much more, really aware of something I

never used to do. But when I speak to friends, or it's a

birthday, or we have a beautiful connection, I just say to them,

I love you, and I'll end the conversation like that, I love

you, my friend. And that is so special to me, because you don't

want to leave things unsaid, and sometimes you just not don't

know when it's going to be the last time that you see someone.

So maybe that is the gift of making us more aware, of

appreciating our connection with people, speaking the things that

are meaningfully important, telling people that you love

them. Tell them every day you know you can never say it too

much, and obviously only if you mean it.

Yeah, yeah. We didn't say I love you. We didn't say

that with my dad until after he had the first cancer scare, and

then it was I love you for for the remainder of his days. So I

love that call to action, Daphna tell the people that are

valuable in your life, that they're tell them that they're

compel

them. And another beautiful thing I've

heard, also in the last couple of years that we've been dealing

with this is that your relationship with a person who

died is not over. Your relationship with them leaves on

the person is not with you physically anymore, but you

still have a relationship with them. It looks different. It

might feel a bit different, but the relationship is there, and

you can continue to grow it. You can continue speaking to them.

Can write them letters. I know I've encouraged my clients

who've experienced loss to speak to their loved ones, to write

letters, to share. You can continue having a relationship,

and I think that that's also something to bear in mind. It's

not over, it's not the end and all gone. Yes, it's a different

experience, but you can still have that relationship with your

loved ones.

Beautiful Daphna. Listeners, if you have found

this episode meaningful, please share it with someone who might

need to hear it. Yeah. And if you have a topic that you'd love

for us to tackle in an unfiltered way, let us know

we're always up for the conversations that don't get

talked about enough.

Yeah. And until next time, stay curious, stay

courageous and stay unfiltered. That's a wrap on this episode of

unfiltered, where we have courageous conversations about

topics that are not often discussed in depth. We hope this

conversation sparked something in you, whether it's a new

perspective, a moment of reflection, or just the

reassurance that you're not alone.

If you found this episode meaningful, please share

it with someone who needs to hear it, and if you have a topic

that you'd love for us to tackle, let us know we are

always up for conversations that don't get talked about

enough. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a

review and connect with us on LinkedIn. All our details are in

the show notes, because the best conversations don't end here

until next time. Stay curious, stay courageous and

stay unfiltered, foreign.